OrangeProblems.co.uk

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:55 pm (GMT 0)

Author: jwgw
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:55 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

Following BBK's posts it seems to me just too much of a coincidence that we all have so much noise on our lines that DLM has to reduce all our line speeds. It would appear that the parameters built into their model are very restrictive in order to satisfy their policy of providing speeds much less than 20Mb. If BBK has had a rock solid connection at 12Mb then its obvious the noise wasn't affecting his connection so why should DLM reduce the speed unless its done artifically.
On a related issue - if I reboot my wireless router should the initial download rate be at my specified profile speed and should I see this before DLM kicks in to reduce it?

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:40 pm (GMT 0)

Author: BroadbandKing
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:40 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

I have been allowed to post what was emailed to me, but as best as I could in my own words from the email, rather than a direct cut and paste. Although that is quite difficult with regard the technical terms used, so here goes:

The Dynamic Line Management [DLM] is a software module on the network element manager for the DSLAMs.

The element manager creates a service template which is more or less a 3 dimensional table, or grid, of profiles for the SFBB service.

- On the z axis of the grid is Up/downstream speed and noise margin

- On the y axis is error protection [impulse noise protection and interleaving delay]

- On the x axis transmit power [used to try to repair the service in terms of MTBR and MTBE, or line sync health].

Orange have a number of service profiles in the service template that will facilitate a service from 24Mb to 288Kb [z axis]

And with varying tolerances of noise protection and interleaving [y axis].

Each service profile has has an upper and lower value for rate.

For example the 24Mb service profile will support a line with a max attainable bit rate [MABR] of 24567Kb down to 20480Kb.

If the customers MABR falls below 20480Kb then DLM will change the profile to the next lowest one, a 20Mb profile.

Similarly if the line exhibits fewer, or more, noise issues or coding violations then DLM will make a sideways switch to profile which will better support the customers service stability.

Where DLM determines that a line requires a service quality repair/upgrade, or a line sync health repair then one change in one dimension is recommended and then implemented by DLM.

Tolerances [such as noise margin] of each service profile are hardcoded to that profile, but because there are a number of service profiles in each service template if more of less 'protection' is required, or more or less rate is possible then DLM will move the customers line to suitable profile.

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:13 pm (GMT 0)

Author: Borednow
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:13 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

I do not doubt that Orange believe everything they put out to the media and to the users but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's true.

What they can't do is to advertise a product that, because of operational strategy, they have no intention of delivering.

If Orange can give just one example of a user whose router is syncing at, near or in excess of 20,000kbps then the Advertising Standards Authority would be happy.

There are users of BE and O2 whose routers sync at the advertised speed.....there are some, not many, that sync in excess of the advertised speed.

Quote:

The 20Mbps O2 maximum is just conservative marketing to minimise complaints from non-geeks. There are several people on O2 getting over 20Mbps.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.c...;fpart=all
_________________
"So this is my pledge to the British people:
I will not let you down."
Gordon Brown - 24/09/2007 (Labour Party Conference)
Gordon's favourite phrase, "We will do whatever it takes..."

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:51 pm (GMT 0)

Author: BroadbandKing
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:51 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

Borednow.

I have an email from Orange describing how their DLM works. But I have been told that it was just for me to read. However I do think it would make interesting reading especially to you and others.

I have been told that Orange are happy with the DLM and how it works now. So if my speed goes down to 9 meg, that is because the DLM thinks there is noise on my line. And if I reboot and go back to 12.5 meg, then that according to Orange is acceptable and all part of how the DLM works.

I am sure that you would all like to read how the DLM works.... so bear with me for a while......

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:09 pm (GMT 0)

Author: Borednow
Subject: Re: speed decrease moving from BE to <a href=
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:09 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

jhall_uk wrote:

Can someone advise if the speed I'm getting is reasonable or not based on the above.

If you read through some of the posts in this thread, it will become clear that Orange are having serious problems with their new ADSL2+ DLM.

They use a 10dB default Target SNR rather than the 6dB that all other ISPs use, BE for example. N.B. your downstream SNRM = 10dB that is one reason why your router isn't syncing at 12 or 13meg.

They run the DLM 24/7 which I think only BT and Sky do, BE run theirs for just a few days on initial connection as do most other LLU ISPs. This is another reason why your router isn't syncing higher.

The DLM software is, in addition, flawed which Orange are saying is being corrected. This is another reason why your router isn't syncing higher.

Personally, if I had been in your position, I would have moved to O2 and got their mobile+home phone+broadband package.

I believe sooner or later ASA will receive a complaint regarding Orange's description "up to 20meg" because somebody will challenge them to prove that anyone is actually capable of achieving anywhere near the maximum 20meg, given the connection parameters that they are using even if the user was located next door to the local exchange.
_________________
"So this is my pledge to the British people:
I will not let you down."
Gordon Brown - 24/09/2007 (Labour Party Conference)
Gordon's favourite phrase, "We will do whatever it takes..."

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:45 am (GMT 0)

Author: jhall_uk
Subject: speed decrease moving from BE to Orange
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:45 am (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

I've recently bitten the bullet and moved from BE to Orange because Orange had a nice iphone/home phone/home broadband deal.

I was previously v happy with BE, until I realised that there monthly prices were quite expensive to what Orange and Sky now offer - so I made the move.

I'm on the Chiswick exchange (London) and live as the crow flies about 1km from the exchange, but looking at the road network, I'm guessing somewhere between 1.5 and 2km of cabling.

With BE I was getting between 8.5 and 10mbps download on their speedtouch router. Pretty reliable, although I would get the odd drop out.

I've got a SE572 Livebox router and I'm getting btw 5.5 and 6.5 mbps download speed. I've not moved, so why the decrease?

So I called Orange and they say my line supports up to around 7mbps. Now, I've been with BE for 3 years and never had speeds as low as 7 so I tried to explain that it was nonsense. However, I've got nowhere, despite a few phone calls.

My stats are from the livebox stats page are:

Status: Cable connected
Line mode: G.992.5 (ADSL2+)
Maximum line rate: 6402 kbps (downstream) / 1021 kbps (upstream)
Noise margin: 10 dB (downstream) / 4294966132 dB (upstream)
Line attenuation: 33 dB (downstream) / 16 dB (upstream)
Output power: 21 dBm (downstream) / 12 dBm (upstream)

Speedtest.net shows the following:

502) {this.width = 502;}" onmouseout="nd();" onmouseover="if(this.width == 502) {return overlib('', ol_fgcolor='#ff6804', ol_bgcolor='#ff6804', ol_width=147, ol_offsetx=22, ol_offsety=-7, CAPTION, 'Image resized.
Click to view full size.');}" onclick="if(this.width == 502) { window.open('/phpBB2/templates/NoseBleed/resizefix.php?originalsize=http://www.speedtest.net/result/745941206.png', '_blank' , 'scrollbars=1, toolbar=no, resizable=1, menubar=no, directories=no, status=yes'); return false; }" />

I think that in theory I should be able to get up to around 12mbps download based on my attenuation and estimated distance from exchange - but I'm not too sure.

Can someone advise if the speed I'm getting is reasonable or not based on the above.

Also, how do I begin to get Orange to understand that the line test they did at the start of contract is not representative of what speeds I have previously achieved.

What's more, Orange never even told me that 7mbps was the top speed the line test came out with - I only checked the orangehome email account when the router turned up and that is when I saw the line speed test results -a bit late in the day!

I'm a reasonable person - I'm not expecting 12 or 14mbps. Just getting the same as previously would be acceptable!

Cheers,
John

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:20 am (GMT 0)

Author: yakleback55
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:20 am (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

well i must be quite lucky my line went straight to the 12meg profile and has not moved since i cant see on my router when it resyncs so i dont know if it has or not but it is sync'd at the same speed as it was a week ago

RE: Livebox Rebooting Itself and random PPP Server Down Problems :: (Livebox Issues?)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:35 am (GMT 0)

Author: Borednow
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:35 am (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 9

Alex_UK wrote:

I'm quietly confident therefore that the Siemens router is working properly in my environment. Apart from the conclusion that 2 Livebox's were faulty, something in the house must have been interfering with them causing them to reboot, which isn't affecting the Siemens router.

The Siemens may have improved your connection in a general way but the PPP error is nothing to do with that or anything within your house.

To get a PPP error you must be connected to your local exchange but the connection from the exchange to Orange's routers/servers was failing....that's what Orange have repaired.

Glad it's all sorted and back to "normal"...what are the router stats and BT speedtester showing now ?
_________________
"So this is my pledge to the British people:
I will not let you down."
Gordon Brown - 24/09/2007 (Labour Party Conference)
Gordon's favourite phrase, "We will do whatever it takes..."

RE: Livebox Rebooting Itself and random PPP Server Down Problems :: (Livebox Issues?)

Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:24 am (GMT 0)

Author: Alex_UK
Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:24 am (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 9

Thanks again borednow, but think I am there - finally! There have been no "PPP Server Down" messages since Monday, so (fingers crossed) I think they have solved that problem, hopefully for everyone out there with the same issue.

I received an email from Jonathan from Orange, promising I'd get a call and I did - they are calling back again today to check progress. Basically, Wednesday night I decided to try the Siemens router again, so configured it and connected all my devices - all appears to be working fine, and it has stayed connected ever since (1day 9hrs 35mins so far) - I'm quietly confident therefore that the Siemens router is working properly in my environment. Apart from the conclusion that 2 Livebox's were faulty, something in the house must have been interfering with them causing them to reboot, which isn't affecting the Siemens router. Must say, it has been great to finally have a stable connection - you just don't realise how much you rely on it these days until you lose it!

Guess I'll stick with it for a while and see how it goes - I hear horror stories about every broadband supplier, so maybe better the devil you know...

RE: 8mgb my arse, its no way to treat a very loyal customer! :: (Problems with upgrades to 8Mb)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:32 pm (GMT 0)

Author: crewie
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:32 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

Thank You Borednow.

I have just emailed customer services and I will await their responce.

Im pretty peed off with Orange now.

RE: 8mgb my arse, its no way to treat a very loyal customer! :: (Problems with upgrades to 8Mb)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:04 pm (GMT 0)

Author: Borednow
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:04 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

crewie wrote:

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Download Speed
4506 Kbps

0 Kbps 7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speedachieved during the test was - 4506 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8096 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7000 Kbps

Yes that confirms your IP Profile matches your sync speed but that congestion at the exchange or "controlled manipulation" by Orange is restricting your throughput speed.

Make yourself a nuisance with Orange CS.
_________________
"So this is my pledge to the British people:
I will not let you down."
Gordon Brown - 24/09/2007 (Labour Party Conference)
Gordon's favourite phrase, "We will do whatever it takes..."

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:10 pm (GMT 0)

Author: Del UK
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:10 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

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Click to view full size.');}" onclick="if(this.width == 502) { window.open('/phpBB2/templates/NoseBleed/resizefix.php?originalsize=http://www.speedtest.net/result/745337786.png', '_blank' , 'scrollbars=1, toolbar=no, resizable=1, menubar=no, directories=no, status=yes'); return false; }" />

Birmingham Server

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Click to view full size.');}" onclick="if(this.width == 502) { window.open('/phpBB2/templates/NoseBleed/resizefix.php?originalsize=http://www.speedtest.net/result/745341538.png', '_blank' , 'scrollbars=1, toolbar=no, resizable=1, menubar=no, directories=no, status=yes'); return false; }" />

Maidenhead Server

I know what it is.......... I haven't installed the Orange upto 20Mbps driver on my operating systems.

On a serious note:-

If there is someone from Orange Response Team reading through the thread...... why, have you not called back when you said you would?

I really am that fed up with this "upgrade".

The fact that I am, told by Orange customer service, they do not have full control over this; raises security issues here. Who does have control?

Del

RE: 8mgb my arse, its no way to treat a very loyal customer! :: (Problems with upgrades to 8Mb)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:54 pm (GMT 0)

Author: crewie
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:54 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.

Download Speed
4506 Kbps

0 Kbps 7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed

Download speedachieved during the test was - 4506 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8096 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7000 Kbps

RE: Connectivity Issues :: (Livebox Issues?)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:25 pm (GMT 0)

Author: tajinda
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:25 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 2

I have same problem, i try to access the 192.168.1.1 thing and it says "An internal error has occured. Please reboot your livebox." I have tryed rebooting but still have the same problem. This only happened recently after my phone line and internet went down for a couple of days, my phone and internet went down about a month ago, any one have any ideas or should i ring Orange tech?

RE: 8mgb my arse, its no way to treat a very loyal customer! :: (Problems with upgrades to 8Mb)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:57 pm (GMT 0)

Author: Borednow
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:57 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

Yes...that looks a good BTw IPStream connection syncing at almost maximum.

Can you run and post the results from www.speedtester.bt.com so we can check your IP Profile but I think the answer is going to be congestion.
_________________
"So this is my pledge to the British people:
I will not let you down."
Gordon Brown - 24/09/2007 (Labour Party Conference)
Gordon's favourite phrase, "We will do whatever it takes..."

RE: 8mgb my arse, its no way to treat a very loyal customer! :: (Problems with upgrades to 8Mb)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:18 pm (GMT 0)

Author: crewie
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:18 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

ADSL firmware version : A2pBT009c1.d17d
Connection mode : G.DMT
Type : Interleave
Noise margin (dB) : 8.3
Attenuation (dB) : 17.0
Attainable download rate (kbps) : 9408
ADSL status : Connected [0]

Downstream Upstream
Rate (kbps) 8096 448

WAN IP address : 95.150.119.125
Gateway : 217.41.220.143
Primary DNS server : 193.36.79.101
Secondary DNS server : 193.36.79.100

Internet protocol : pppoa
Encapsulation : VC-Mux
VP : 0
VC : 38
Broadband Username : xxxx@xxxxxxx.freeserve.co.uk@fs [6]
Mode : Permanent [1--1]

Is this what you wanted?

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:50 pm (GMT 0)

Author: tinytim
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:50 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

Mine resynced many times this morning between 2am & 4am. Never done that before.

RE: only 450m from exchange and still slow! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:25 pm (GMT 0)

Author: Borednow
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:25 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

nick1960 wrote:

BT speedtest results

Download speedachieved during the test was - 2888 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8096 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7000 Kbps

Well it certainly looks like congestion. Your router is syncing at more or less maximum with the correct IP Profile for the sync speed.

From the stats you posted earlier your line is OK.

Unfortunately the only solution is that you need to make yourself a nuisance with those Indians.
_________________
"So this is my pledge to the British people:
I will not let you down."
Gordon Brown - 24/09/2007 (Labour Party Conference)
Gordon's favourite phrase, "We will do whatever it takes..."

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:04 pm (GMT 0)

Author: jdjohn
Subject: more resyncs
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:04 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

another 9 resyncs between 16.21pm and 16.53pm today but still comes back each time at 3443kbbs and 10.1 noise

anyone else have this same problem

a total of 17 resyncs in just over 1 hour

DLM leave me alone

RE: only 450m from exchange and still slow! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:45 pm (GMT 0)

Author: nick1960
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:45 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

Hi borednow,

BT speedtest results

Download speedachieved during the test was - 2888 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8096 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7000 Kbps

What do you reckon about those?

I'm happy to take this discussion somewhere else as I appear to be on the wrong thread. Not sure which thread though - basically I'm connected to an exchange that is still full of exclusively BT kit, but my ISP is Orange. I have Home Ultra which bangs on about 20meg etc., but clearly that's not relevant to me as I'm not in a proper Orange area. Any suggestions about where to post, TIA

RE: Downgraded!!! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:25 pm (GMT 0)

Author: jdjohn
Subject: settle down
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:25 pm (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 664

Well my line seems to have settled around 3 meg,
router now been on constanly since 21st feb, but dlm still seems to kick in mainly in the afternoon.
results below from router stats
9.30 am 2954kbbs noise 10.2
12.45 3420 10.1
1pm 3372 10.1
14.30 3443 10.1

between 15.39 and 16.20pm 8 resyncs all at 3443
why does it do this

RE: only 450m from exchange and still slow! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:50 am (GMT 0)

Author: nick1960
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:50 am (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

Ok thanks folks - I'm on the wrong thread, sorry! I'm just getting to grips with all this.

Borednow - yes I ran the BT test last night. I'll do it again tonight and post the results, then I'll clear off to another thread!

RE: MTU :: (General Wanadoo / Orange Problems)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:48 am (GMT 0)

Author: Borednow
Subject: Re: MTU
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:48 am (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 2

nick87 wrote:

Hey, I currently have this setting at 1500, but TCP Optimizer told me I can change it down to 1492. Will changing this setting have any effect?

What OS are you running ?
_________________
"So this is my pledge to the British people:
I will not let you down."
Gordon Brown - 24/09/2007 (Labour Party Conference)
Gordon's favourite phrase, "We will do whatever it takes..."

RE: only 450m from exchange and still slow! :: (Problems with Orange 20 Meg Broadband)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:47 am (GMT 0)

Author: Borednow
Subject: Re: only 450m from exchange and still slow!
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:47 am (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

nick1960 wrote:

Downstream Connection Speed 8096 kbps
Line Attenuation 20db
Noise Margin 6db

Upstream Connection Speed 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 5db
Noise Margin 28db

You're not on up to 20meg LLU connection (your post is in the 20meg section)

Yours is a BTw IPStream line and looking at those stats is quite a good connection.

But can you post the results from www.speedtester.bt.com please ?
_________________
"So this is my pledge to the British people:
I will not let you down."
Gordon Brown - 24/09/2007 (Labour Party Conference)
Gordon's favourite phrase, "We will do whatever it takes..."

RE: 8mgb my arse, its no way to treat a very loyal customer! :: (Problems with upgrades to 8Mb)

Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:42 am (GMT 0)

Author: Borednow
Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:42 am (GMT 0)
Topic Replies: 7

@crewie

Please post your router stats
_________________
"So this is my pledge to the British people:
I will not let you down."
Gordon Brown - 24/09/2007 (Labour Party Conference)
Gordon's favourite phrase, "We will do whatever it takes..."